nloftofan1 & ladydance

You are 100% correct the name Cha-cha-cha is misleading. Cha-cha would be a better name, and it often used in the USA. The UK is more traditional, and when announcing the dance it is usually Cha-cha-cha.

This is one of the mysteries of the dance related names. Occasionally, very confusing, especially in Standard where the same word is used to describe totally different movements. One teacher said he thought that those who gave the names were drunk.

And.. the reason its counted 4= 1, is because its paying homage to the conga slap (4-1) .

As to similarities, all the styles have the same root, hence basics are crossovers in many cases.

Hi Terence2,

Could you elaborate on the conga slap timing? I am not sure if I hear it properly, at least not always. What about in Rumba? Where is the conga slap? Thanks.

ALL latin being Son based, the Conga ( Tumbao )creates a dominant 4 beat usually on the 4th beat 2nd bar. Immediately after, there is a "slap " ( and "1" )which may be used for syncopations The "2" that follows is the beat on which we break..

The "Son " style music ,from which Danzon /Rumba evolved ,has a more dominant beat than most other dance styles of latin, BUT.. Its always implied, even by Piano.

Often,The major problem with non latin bands that play latin songs for dancing/teaching, is, they often do not have all the instrument "makeup " of traditional latin bands, hence, the stressed beats one is listening for may not always be as clear.. but.. this also is evident in traditional style music on occasion .

Having said that, one still can be guided by knowing how the structure of the music , is written. Pretty much all is in 2 bar sequence .Identify that, and Presto ! you know where emphasis lies

Hi Terence2,

Thanks for the reply. Very interesting. I would like to study your suggestion.

Would you please refer me to a C-C and a R song where the phenomenon you describe is easily recognizable? (YouTube address or just the name of the song and artist, if not on YouTube). That would be good starting point for me. I have no problems recognizing the 1 in any Standard dances, or in Jive, Passo and Samba, but I use only intuition for R & C-C, and I am occasionally embarrassingly wrong, and often have to trust the partner with the counting. Your method would help me to use more than intuition. Thanks.

Slight correction: In cha cha music, the "slap" sound is actually played by the conga on count 2. It's played by slapping the fingertips on the surface of the drum and momentarily retaining tension, which results in a snappier sound with a higher pitch.

The sound played on 4& is known as a "tone", which is played with a larger surface area of the hand rebounding instantly off of the drum, resulting in an open ringing tone of generally lower pitch.

For right-handed percussionists, these two sounds are played by the right hand, and provide the accents in the music.

There are two other more subtle subtle sounds, played by alternating the heel and fingertips of the left hand, which fill in the rest of the half-beats and provide a steady pulse. With these four sounds -- heel, tip, slap and tone, the most basic cha cha rhythm played on the conga goes like this:

Heel, tip, SLAP, tip, heel, tip, TONE, TONE.

If each of those sounds constitutes a half-beat (eighth note), then you can see that the three accented beats are 2, 4, and the "and" of 4.

When the conga drum is played solo, you can clearly hear each of those sounds. You might find it difficult to distinguish between heel and tip, but the important accents, slap and tone, stand out and are clearly identified. Heel and tip are just the subtle pulse in between.

Once you layer in other instruments, heel and tip get drowned out, and all that's really left are the accented beats, "... SLAP ...... TONE TONE ....... SLAP ....... TONE TONE". They give you as a dancer the cues for your break on 2, and your cha cha on 4&.

The best way to teach this sound to your ears is to start with a solo conga drum. Listen over and over until you are well aware of what this sounds like, then put on a more authentic cha cha song and listen for those sounds. They should be in exactly the same spot -- 2, and 4&.

The closest I've found so far on YouTube is a video of a guy named Jorge Santo teaching a slight variation of the basic rhythm, heel tip SLAP TONE heel tip TONE TONE, which adds an extra tone accent on the "and" of 2. It should be close enough that you get the basic idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EKKoPJvLUA

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Jonathan

Yep, there is a "slap " on 2.. BUT ..the sequence of 4 and 1 is set up by a dominant 4.. followed by "and" 1,2. This is prevalent in both the Guajira and Cha cha recordings, where as in Guajira a double syncopation is frequently heard..

Here's a good ex. of a strong dominant 4slap setting up the sequence
LA Maximas Lapiz Y Papel .

Even the Piano, as you probably know, also in the Son rhythms, which is the basis for ALL latin (and the Cha chas origin ) plays a dominant 4 in its 2 bars.

The 2nd bar in the 2 bar structure ,is where the Congas slap is most evident .
Ironically, there are many songs being used for Cha cha that are Guajiras ( this is danced with the syncope 1,2 3and4 ).

Hi Jonathan & Terence2,

Thanks for the discussion. Very helpful, indeed.

I listened to Jorge Santo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EKKoPJvLUA) and I can definitely recognize the 2 with the snappier sound with a higher pitch. The 4& I recognize by the half-beat.

However, it seems to me that many songs use different rhythm for the bar, for example, as terence2 mentioned (1,2 3 & 4). So now my question is: At competition will they always play the 2 3 4 & 1 version? And if they dont, just try to recognize the snappier 2, and use that as a reference?

No, they won't. And this is, at least in my opinion, a major problem in today's competitions. The deejays are given major latitude with song selection, but that alone is not the problem. It's when it's paired with the rigidity of the judging panel's interpretation of musicality, that it creates a dilemma for the competitors: Should they be "musical" according to the norms, (e.g. always break on 2 in Cha Cha), or should they be *actually* musical and dance to what the current piece of music is begging for?

It would be lovely if either deejays were given stricter guidelines, or judges as a group would recognize and base their marks on true musicality. But for now it seems, neither one of those is likely. So in a competition environment there are times, when the deejay gets creative, that you may have to choose between the two. And for better or worse, you will always be rewarded for choosing the prescribed timing. If the music seems to be asking for something else, you have to try your best to ignore specific instruments, accents or melodies and simply ride along with the basic pulse, identifying beat 1 through the natural agogic stress of the beats as a whole.

The topic of what identifies beat 1 when there's no guaranteed instrumentation to help you is a huge can of worms that warrants a separate discussion of its own. I've attempted a few lessons on the subject here on Dancetalk in the past if you're in the mood to search for them. And I'm sure there are many more lessons to be found on the web to help you find the beat of music in general, without relying on specific styles or orchestrations thereof. And in the competition world, *that's* the skill you need, more than the ability to pick out the slap of a conga drum.

That having been said, if you are social dancing, I would always recommend following the music. If you hear a conga on 3&4 instead of 4&1, and it's screaming at you to break on 1 instead of 2, then by all means, follow it. All of these dances and timings came about precisely because people for generations simply did what came naturally to them, not because a dance teacher told them what was "correct".

Regards,
Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

I am suspecting that the fact that deejays, as well as teachers, are inconsistent with playing the CC music, is part of my problem of having difficulty identifying the start of the bar. You said there is a lot of literature on topic, but I have not come across them. This is the first time I see the issue addressed professionally. I think most dance teachers develop an intuition, and as intuitions go, they are difficult to explain so they dont talk about it much. Sometimes they say the downbeat is the one. So the student asks an innocent question: how can I tell which is the downbeat? The teacher answers: the one when the conductors baton comes down. Great explanation. Now the student has to visualize the conductor as well, making the issue even more complicated. Others say when the singer starts singing. However, that is not always true; sometimes they dont start on 1.

This tread is on CC, but may I turn it to Rumba for second? The dancer in CC normally accents the 1 (sometimes the 3). In Rumba (Latin) the 4 is commonly accented. Is there a musical explanation for that, or it is just a tradition? Also, could you refer to a Rumba song or instrumental music which shows similar elements that the Jorge Santo video demonstrates for CC?

This should be an important topic for many dancers, who like me, not musically gifted. Thanks for discussing it.